Just launched FreePagePeel.com last night.

If it generates some decent traffic, the idea is to offer a premium service (annual subscription) to a web app that will let you create and customize all sorts of DHTML ads, maybe other flash ads or widgets as well.

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

ahh great, its not working now because my host doesn't have the zip library for PHP installed....

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

alright, allegedly working now, what a PITA

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

Interesting, though I'm not seeing a peel in the upper corner.

Neat idea though, this has some potential, methinks.

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Do it for the Lobster

Quote by Chops

Interesting, though I'm not seeing a peel in the upper corner. Neat idea though, this has some potential, methinks.

I've had issues with that peel, I don't know what the deal is. Sometimes it doesn't show up. I thought for a while it was the adsense code interfering, but then it would work, who the fuck knows. That's why I'm glad it's free.

What browser/OS you using?

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

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Look at the upper right corner of this page — it looks like the webpage is peeled back

Yeah, nothing up there. Flashblock shows the applet, but clicking on it does nothing. When I whitelist the site, I still see nothing.

Oh, wait..... it's adblock's fault. Damn I love adblock!

Now Flashblock shows the applet, but clicking on it does nothing. Maybe it's missing some of the onload stuff.

Whitelisting the page in both flashblock and adblock does show the ad though. Pretty interesting. Especially the onmouseover event. The wiggling is a little annoying though, but it's a really cool idea!

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no fat chicks

I didn't write the page peel, some other guy did. Though I'd like to fool around with Flash development if the dev tool wasn't so fucking expensive.

I don't know if theres some issue going on with how he's loading it with JS or what, but I've had some problems getting it to show. Clicking on it just takes you to the same page you're on now.

The marketing dept here wanted to use a "page peel" for an offer, and I searched all over the place and found a couple free ones (and a lot of ones to buy), but they were a pain to setup. Something I realized could be more automated. That's where the idea is from. And they also want to do DHTML "floating"-type ads etc, one of which a co-worker of mine put together after much screwing around with browser compatibilities. I was surprised I couldn't find a web application that actually made *professional* looking DHTML ads, all browsers supported, and was easy enough for some marketing bonehead to generate and copy/paste into a webpage. So that's supposed to be the profitable part. I figure a business would happily pay up to $100+ per user per year for a nice system that let non-programmers create professional ads. Could even offer a couple different price levels. The only issue I see would be support questions, but that could probably be handled well by building up a good FAQ from the initial customers.

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

I kid you not, a friend of mine just sent me this:

http://www.businessinsider.com/27-publishers-including-nyt-forbes-espn-try-huge-non-banner-ads-2009-3

Quote

27 Huge Publishers Join To Replace The Banner The formats they've agreed on all have one trait in common: they are much bigger and more attention-grabbing than the banner, which is despised by publishers, advertisers and readers alike as an ad unit.

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

It's working for me now. Firefox3/Vista64

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Do it for the Lobster

Quote

27 Huge Publishers Join To Replace The Banner The formats they've agreed on all have one trait in common: they are much bigger and more attention-grabbing than the banner, which is despised by publishers, advertisers and readers alike as an ad unit.

People have learned to look around the ads, so let's make them bigger and more annoying, thus giving users more reasons to leave our site. Brilliant.

Quote by image in the article

a new, bigger, easier-to-see with video and sound too, media-on-demand display ad

Nothing annoys me more than sound in ads, with video a close second. Good thing I use adblock and flashblock..... I expect their user base to pick up significantly. Adblock is especially cool because it not only doesn't show the ad, it actually collapses the space the ad WOULD have taken up, which makes the page that much more attractive.

As for your moving DHTML ad thing, any of the popular javascript libraries (mootools, jquery, dojo, prototype/scriptaculous) would give you an easy, cross-browser solution. Just attach some scroll events that reposition the ad and you're done. The beauty of the libraries is that they already have the cross-browser mess straightened out for you, you just need to use their functions and methods.

As an advertising tangent, most people ignore ads not so much because they don't like ads, but because they are boring and usually waste time. Before the days of adblock and commercial skipping on the DVR, I can't remember a single ad or commercial that made me think "hey, that's a product I need to get in on!" Most of the stuff straight up doesn't apply to me; I'm not buying a new car, I already have cheap car insurance, I don't buy candy or junk food, I don't go to movies, I'm not going to shop at your random website, I'm not going to shop at a brick and mortar store, I won't watch most of the other shows on your network..... on and on and on. So, 99% of ads I come in contact with are an absolute waste of my time.

Techdirt constantly makes a great point about advertisements that most people don't realize. Advertisements ARE media, if they are boring, people won't consume them. This is why "viral" advertisements can't be forced; they aren't designed to be viral, they are designed to be entertaining. They also talk about advertisements wasting peoples' time, which I absolutely subscribe to, and why "targeted" advertising is the holy grail; it doesn't waste your time because it actually applies to you.

Anyway, just felt like going off on a little tangent there. Advertising CAN make you a lot of money, especially if you can do it better (which is why Google is on top of the world). I like the page curl idea; it's unobtrusive and different enough to work; people aren't yet trained to ignore it.

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no fat chicks

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people aren't yet trained to ignore it.

Which makes this a very time sensitive thing. I've seen some of these peelaway ads on other sites before, and most users don't ignore them yet.

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Do it for the Lobster

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People have learned to look around the ads, so let's make them bigger and more annoying, thus giving users more reasons to leave our site. Brilliant.

OK, I'm not some advertising douchebag, but I do work in the publishing industry and you gotta understand the publishers side. I agree the ads shouldn't be annoying, they should be interesting. This goes for print ads and web ads. Just because they are bigger doesn't mean they are more annoying. The root of the problem is many of these publishers aren't getting the ad revenue from their websites as they did previously in print. When in reality they *should* be able to command *more* money from the web ads because as you say they can be targeted which is the future of advertising.

These standard ad sizes are needed because ad agencies have to be able to make the ads precisely. There area already newspaper, magazine, poster, billboard, etc standard sizes, and the original "banner" sizes from the beginning of the internet just don't make sense anymore given the increase in screen sizes.

Yes, *auto* sound and video in ads is annoying. Though if I see an inline movie trailer video that I'm interested in, I like that I can view it without leaving the site I'm on. Do I want a Visual Studio 2008 video to splash on the screen and blast my headphones, no.

I don't think AdBlock or similar software will become standard. First, because the guys behind the desktop browsers (and especially mobile browsers) are in the advertising business (Google, and MS desperately wants to be). Second, as web ads evolve and targeting improves, consumer will want to see good ads.

Quote

As for your moving DHTML ad thing, any of the popular javascript libraries (mootools, jquery, dojo, prototype/scriptaculous) would give you an easy, cross-browser solution. Just attach some scroll events that reposition the ad and you're done. The beauty of the libraries is that they already have the cross-browser mess straightened out for you, you just need to use their functions and methods.

That was my plan, man. The killer feature and where I want to spend time is in the interface and pre-built templates/graphics so anyone can make a decent ad.

Quote

As an advertising tangent, most people ignore ads not so much because they don't like ads, but because they are boring and usually waste time. Before the days of adblock and commercial skipping on the DVR, I can't remember a single ad or commercial that made me think "hey, that's a product I need to get in on!" Most of the stuff straight up doesn't apply to me; I'm not buying a new car, I already have cheap car insurance, I don't buy candy or junk food, I don't go to movies, I'm not going to shop at your random website, I'm not going to shop at a brick and mortar store, I won't watch most of the other shows on your network..... on and on and on. So, 99% of ads I come in contact with are an absolute waste of my time.

Well you also have to remember "branding". Though you may think you are ignoring ads, if you observe them (and not in a negative way, which is the main problem with many web ads because they're annoying) the brand is imprinted on you. Repeated exposure to that brand is the goal, so though you may not be looking for car insurance right *now*, at some point when you are or someone asks you about it, what's the first thing that pops into your head? Geico. Same thing with cars. With many products its all about brand and brand loyalty. Once you turn like 30yrs old, you're likely to continue to buy the same brand of certain products for the rest of your life.

Yeah I skip a lot of ads with the DVR too, though I'll nearly always rewind to watch the iPhone ads. They're brilliant: great visuals and great music. Movie trailers sometimes too. Like you say, once targeting advertising gets to the TV (which is soon) I should only be presented with ads I want to see.

Quote

Techdirt constantly makes a great point about advertisements that most people don't realize. Advertisements ARE media, if they are boring, people won't consume them.

That's a great point and a great way to explain good advertising. I may have to use that line at work to shoot down some of the retarded ad ideas I hear.

Sorry, more than I wanted to type! The state of web advertising and the print industry is fascinating right now. Lots of magazines and newspapers going bankrupt, more quickly now because of the economy, though they've been in slow decline for awhile, and its all rooted in advertising.

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

Quote by stevo

OK, I'm not some advertising douchebag Quote Never said you were [quote=stevo] Yes, *auto* sound and video in ads is annoying. Though if I see an inline movie trailer video that I'm interested in, I like that I can view it without leaving the site I'm on. Do I want a Visual Studio 2008 video to splash on the screen and blast my headphones, no. Yes, auto sound/video is what I meant. Thanks for the clarification. Your point is valid too though, video and sound should be an OPTION when it makes sense. [quote=stevo]I don't think AdBlock or similar software will become standard. First, because the guys behind the desktop browsers (and especially mobile browsers) are in the advertising business (Google, and MS desperately wants to be). Second, as web ads evolve and targeting improves, consumer will want to see good ads.

I don't think it will be a standard by any means. What I meant was that more people who run Firefox will start using it if the ads get more annoying than they already are.

Quote by stevo

That was my plan, man. The killer feature and where I want to spend time is in the interface and pre-built templates/graphics so anyone can make a decent ad.

Yeah, making it retard friendly is key. So that and you've got yourself one hell of a product for sure. I really like the page curl idea, and if your execution is solid, you could be quite successful indeed.

Quote by stevo

Well you also have to remember "branding". Though you may think you are ignoring ads, if you observe them (and not in a negative way, which is the main problem with many web ads because they're annoying) the brand is imprinted on you. Repeated exposure to that brand is the goal, so though you may not be looking for car insurance right *now*, at some point when you are or someone asks you about it, what's the first thing that pops into your head? Geico.

Yeah, I rep Geico because I use them (or used them when I had a car). I rep Progressive too for motorcycle insurance. Though, not because I know about them though, but because they are the cheapest around Geico for car, Progressive for motorcycle). I was specifically talking about those annoying ass esurance ads. I can't STAND those things! I'll never use them as a result. In fact, most of the time, ads annoy me so much that I swear off ever using the product being sold, so maybe it's better for advertisers that I don't consume their ads...

Quote by stevo

Yeah I skip a lot of ads with the DVR too, though I'll nearly always rewind to watch the iPhone ads. They're brilliant: great visuals and great music. Movie trailers sometimes too. Like you say, once targeting advertising gets to the TV (which is soon) I should only be presented with ads I want to see.

I like to go back and watch that Denny's ad with the Nanerpuss. I love that guy! I wish that ad was longer .

Quote by stevo

That's a great point and a great way to explain good advertising. I may have to use that line at work to shoot down some of the retarded ad ideas I hear. Sorry, more than I wanted to type! The state of web advertising and the print industry is fascinating right now. Lots of magazines and newspapers going bankrupt, more quickly now because of the economy, though they've been in slow decline for awhile, and its all rooted in advertising.

Yeah, it is. It's sad that so much money and time is spent on advertising and people consistantly do it wrong. I mean, Google came along with a simple little text-based ad system that was absolutely unheard of at the time (when popups and other annoying crap was just starting to take off) and absolutely DOMINATED the market. Even today everyone is still trying to play catchup. Sometimes it's the simple changes that have the most affect. That's why I like the page curl idea; different, simple, unobtrusive and not annoying, and it also doesn't distract from the page design. Another thing I see and usually pay attention to (though it's not yet used for advertising) are little tags in the top corner of the site, set at a 45 degree angle that hover there on top of everything else but don't get in the way. Another weapon for the arsenal for you I guess.

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no fat chicks

Oh, and to be clear about my ad consumption; I realize I'm in the minority as far as what I will actually buy, but my minority also isn't that small.

And on the topic of newspapers folding, a lot of their problem is that they don't bring any VALUE to their information. This topic has been hashed to death over on Techdirt and continues to be discussed. The problem they have is that they are trying to get people to pay for infinite goods (information) instead of finite goods (tangible items, which would include the physical newspapers or space in said newspapers or their websites) because it's always worked in the past. They're suffering the same fate the recording industry has; they're making themselves obsolete. Instead of adapting and finding ways to capture more eyes and keep people coming back and staying involved in their site (and making more money on advertising), they are just sitting back and bitching about it. Or worse, they are trying to stop the people (like Google) who are driving traffic to them. They view themselves as the gatekeepers of information, and the problem is that those days are LONG gone and they've taken WAY too much time to figure that out.

The information is not where the value is, the value is in the user/subscriber base. The more eyes you can claim, the more you can demand for your advertising. It's pretty interesting how the newspaper business is paralleling the music business so well, and kind of sad too since it has spelled death of the newspaper as a whole. The industry is only a shell of what it once was.

EDIT: As an aside, you should really add Techdirt to your list of daily sites. I think you'd be pretty interested in most of the things discussed on there.

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no fat chicks

I somewhat agree with you on the newspapers. They've totally missed the ball on the way people want to get their news, some of the newspapers will not adapt in time and die.

However the information they have IS valuable. The thing is now news is easily and cheaply distributed, which would seem to be GOOD thing, instead they've fought it and I don't know how many times I read another stupid article on these publishing trade journals about micropayments. Forget it, it's dead! No one wants to pay for this stuff, they essentially never have why would they now? Many people don't realize that except for very small niche magazines/papers, the paid subscription barely if even covers the paper, printing, handling, and shipping costs to get that print to your mailbox. Newspapers and magazines have *always* been profitable from the ads. For local newspapers, the classifieds were also huge revenue. What is amazing is the targeted local audience is the newspaper's biggest asset, and they watched craigslist destroy them. Why the newspapers weren't the first on the scene offering online classifieds is incredible. The newspaper had the brand and trust and recognition as THE PLACE to buy local used stuff (cars, houses, apartments, etc). They are now the place no one looks for that stuff, and only in the last couple years have they realized this.

So you'd think publishers would embrace the web because it eliminates the paper costs, but like you say, instead they bitched about controlling the content. What they don't like is it seems to be inevitable that they will no longer be selling their ads directly, there will be a middleman whos going to cut the profit margin because they will be the ad middleman for everyone, Google. The first incarnation of this is AdSense.

I think people are still willing to pay for music in one form or another. iTunes isn't losing money, but it works because it is tied to a great product. I think the recording industry is full of middlemen who do nothing, music has become so cheap and easy to make that most of it is crap, and people don't get told what to listen to by radio anymore so the whole marketing model has changed.

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

Also, let this blow your mind:

What is the real intent of the Kindle?

For Amazon to sell books? Honestly I don't see real books going away.

Or for Amazon to become the savior of the newspapers and magazines by giving them away for free on the Kindle and selling targeted ads on the device? Sure the cellphone could do this, but the screen on a phone is never going to be big enough to comfortably navigate and read a newspaper or magazine (or even a website). Just wait until GPS gets in the Kindle and you can read the newspaper in the coffee shop, bus, waiting for train, and get location based + user based ads.

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"In the morning if my face is a little puffy I'll put on an ice pack while doing stomach crunches."

Quote by skeezer65134

In fact, most of the time, ads annoy me so much that I swear off ever using the product being sold, so maybe it's better for advertisers that I don't consume their ads

I'm not willing to hold an annoying ad against the company - it's the product I care about, and I pretty much ignore most ads (adblock + watching DVDs almost exclusively). If I do see an ad that piques my interest and is relevant to something I need, I'll check them out.

Plenty of companies have put out some terribly annoying ads but they can still have quality products for sale.

Quote by stevo

Yes, *auto* sound and video in ads is annoying. Though if I see an inline movie trailer video that I'm interested in, I like that I can view it without leaving the site I'm on. Do I want a Visual Studio 2008 video to splash on the screen and blast my headphones, no.

Oh god are those autoplaying ads annoying. I completely agree here about playable movie trailers.

Quote by stevo

I don't think AdBlock or similar software will become standard.

Especially since they only block programmatic ads. And adblock is pretty trivially beaten (just mixing the ads in with content media).

Quote by stevo

I think people are still willing to pay for music in one form or another.

I'm an example of someone who regularly buys music. I buy CDs and MP3s from Amazon (though I'll likely be giving iTunes a try now that they are DRM free). I've been working to replace my entire MP3 collection with legitimately purchased music. I am openly opposed to piracy (I use no pirated software at all except for a copy of WinXP on an old machine that I don't use and is just a backup these days).

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Do it for the Lobster

I hate to keep this on the tangent, but it's a stimulating conversation and this forums is usually pretty quiet, so what the hell.

Quote by stevo

ads, classifieds and google as a middleman

When I say that content has no value, it's not being completely honest. What I mean is, simply HAVING the content doesn't offer any value to YOU since, for the most part, people can get that information anywhere else. That wasn't true 20 years ago, it's only been true for about the last 8-10 years and only now are newspapers starting to realize this.

Yeah, subscriptions don't cover costs, it's always been about ads. That's kind of the point for keeping people coming back to your site and getting involved. If you have a site that can claim a couple million unique hits a day, you can demand more for ads than a site that only sees a couple thousand unique hits a day, that's where the value of having a community comes into play. Google isn't the only option, it's just the easiest. Sites like Facebook, which have a HUGE number of visitors, can't see to successfully run their own ads, which is why smaller sites see fit to contract the work out, and Google is the standard.

Quote by stevo

Kindle

That could be what's coming, but I don't think that's really Amazon's goal. Amazon wants to become the iTunes for books. They are betting that if they can make a product and eco-system that is so useful and easy that they can pick up the market. They're not far off; people are moving away from print media and in to digital distribution.

If they play their cards right (and drop the price of the unit), nothing will be able to stop them. The eBook market is on the verge of an explosion. Up until the Kindle, Sony was the only company making eBook readers, and they were extremely expensive and offered very little with each new revision. Then Amazon came along with a device that was connected to the Internet for easy book purchases and news reading and supported many more formats for several hundred dollars less. There had been other companies making better products for a while (iRex is one of them), but nobody big that could de-thrown Sony. Now the Sony readers just look like the piles of trash that they are.

The fact that this is an especially promising new market (or at least that many people think it is) is evidenced by the number of eBook readers that have been announced recently. The company that makes ePaper is finally coming into their own, and the eBook industry is poised to explode. Amazon is playing the Apple game, locking in customers through DRM and locking out publishers through the same DRM (that they are all crying for, and in a few years, will all be crying about, just like the music industry did with iTunes).

Quote by chops

piracy

I switched to Linux mostly because I got tired of pirating software but didn't have the cash to pay for it. The fact that it's easier for me to use was a huge perk. As for music, I will never purchase an album from an artist backed by the RIAA. That's what it's always upsetting to see artists sign to a big RIAA label because it means I can no longer buy their albums. I will of course still support the artist by attending concerts and buying merch though, because they actually get that money. But, no point bringing a third topic into this conversation, heh.

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no fat chicks

Just catching up on my Techdirt tonight, and wouldn't you know, they picked up on the advertising scheme you posted about. Man, Techdirt is awesome!

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no fat chicks

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But, no point bringing a third topic into this conversation, heh.

Indeed. There are already a lot of different topics in this particular thread.

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Do it for the Lobster